A youtube exchange on #gamergate and SJWs and #shirtstorm

Below is a copy paste of an ongoing exchange I’m having with some random youtube person, in the comments of the video of the most recent episode of Let’s Drown Out. (the video itself is a very meaningful conversation about games and timely topics, as usual is with yahtzee and gabe, but viewing it is not required for context since you probably already know what shirtstorm is, and the exchange never references the video specifically, but I highly recommend watching it anyway)

I’m posting it here because I spent so much time typing up the post, and because I think I make a few very important points about the issues mentioned. I’ll update the post as I get more replies.

Drunken Elf

19 hours ago

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Yeah, just loosely mention GG and the comments explode.

The guy wore a douchey inappropriate shirt for where he was. If it was a casual setting, perhaps a convention, maybe a bar where the shirt can be pointed at and laughed at, or party, or basically any place else besides a world changing event, than it’d be a perfectly fine place to wear it. But when a shirt like that gets presented with out context, you look like a Sexist douchebag.

But he apologized for it so that’s fine. If anyone gave him shit after that, fuck them.

GG got kicked out of 4chan because it was constantly being linked to Doxxing people which went against website policy.

People bitch about 4chan because they constantly have “campaigns” where they flood other corners of the internet with their bullshit humor, and expect everyone to play along with their shitty behavior.

Never heard of anything being “censored” by SJWs; they can only really complain about things until creators change something or ignores them. Gamers have been doing that shit for years; bitching about things in a game until someone changes it or they are ignored. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say they were probably the same kinds of people.


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When gamers bitch about games, it’s called consumer pressure, and gamers are entitled to it because they’re the one paying for the damn games. when SJWs bitch about games, it fucks up someone else’s day for some mistaken sense of moral superiority. And SJWs do much more than complain, every SJW campaign is an attack designed to destroy and subvert, there is nothing civil or constructive about their “activism”.
Nobody should ever have to apologize for a “douchey shirt” especially when the attire is entirely irrelevant to their job. Keeping a leash on censorship and allowing individuals to say questionable things is the price society pays for free speech. You talk about 4chan as if it were a single organized entity, but really to attack whatever website for the actions of its users just killing the messenger – a society that upholds freedom of expression needs messengers free of censorship.

Dude, SJWs are consumers.  They buy games too. It the entire point of little rant, that people view “gamers” and “SJWs” as two completely different people, but really most of the time those two groups intersect.

SJWs haven’t destroyed anything substantial, no matter how much you say they have. The only thing they have destroyed is your ability to say shitty things like “retard” “faggot” etc without  people calling you an asshole for saying things like that. As they SHOULD, because those worlds are the international signal for douchebagery.

Dude, if you go on camera to represent your entire company, than how you look IS relevant to your job. Why no one stopped the guy from wearing that shirt on camera is beyond me.

Its slightly unfair for people to blanket statement 4chan as a haven for mysogynists and jerkbags, but blame 4chan’s structure for that. There are NO NAMES on the website, it is IMPOSSIBLE for people to narrow it down to the people who deserve it, so of fucking course people are going to blame the entire thing.


while you’re right that 4chan was doxxing long before this for incredibly stupid reasons and harrassing people just b/c they liked stuff that /B/ & /V/ hated… you’re also not mentioning any of the things SJW’s do that is annoying either so it looks like you are picking sides.  Are you in favor of transparency?

+Drunken Elf
SJWs may be consumers, but how much of consumers do they make up?
When gamers realized there wasn’t enough nudity in Skyrim, they went ahead and modded it in to fit their own sexual needs without having to ruin the Skyrim experience for everyone else.
What have SJWs done for games lately? I haven’t seen a single feminist game that was actually fun (maybe Bayonetta? but many SJWs hated that game, lol), I haven’t seen a single SJW feminist mod for any game, so I’m simply convinced that SJWs don’t actually care about playing a good game, and thus are not real gamers. For example, Hitman and GTA were all criticized at one point for stripper/ prostitute murder. But if SJWs cared enough they could have simply modded the game and removed those offensive elements without shitting all over someone else’s experience. And that is what I mean when I say that SJWs aren’t constructive – they don’t respect the need for competition in the marketplace of ideas.The image of Matt Taylor wearing a casual shirt while accomplishing one of the greatest achievements in mankind presents a chill and friendly corporate image, if anything.

You know what? When you’re so focused on holding people accountable instead of the actual issue, you’re doing exactly what you accuse the people on 4 chan for doing. People get doxxed because other people are so self-righteous they would feel justified for stripping away a person’s anonymity in order to punish them for a difference of opinion.

Its unfair to blanket statement that all Muslims are terrorists, but its not my fault they all look alike. It’s impossible for your average non muslim to narrow muslim terrorism down to the people who perpetuate it, so of fucking course people are going to blame the entire muslim world for the actions of muslim terrorists.


You seem more reasonable than the last guy, so I will try to swear less.

There are plenty of “SJW” games dude. Some consider Saints Row to be one of the most progressive kinds of games, and a couple months ago I saw a kickstarter for a top down scifi role playing game that allowed you to pick your Gender and sexuality, and had examples of pretty much every under represented group imaginable. Look up A Night in the Woods; it was a kickstarter game that got a shit ton of attention for having a beautiful artstyle and a female lead with no traditional female signifiers. They got over a hundred thousand over their original goal.  The “SJW” games are out there, but you probably are not looking for them.

Don’t paint over the shirt as “Casual”, there are millions of other shirts that would been fine to wear. A Hawaiian shirt, a graphic tee, a shirt covered in comic book graphics that AREN”T just a bunch of nameless bikini women.  Hell, the shirt might have been covered in pictures of Harley Quinn or Catwoman; at leas then you could claim that he is just a fan of the characters.  But a bunch of  nameless bikini models is innappropriate, especially in a work environment where women are pressured not to speak up so that they don’t cause a nuisance.

Most important of all, don’t compare the discrimination of people with the Muslim faith with the “discrimination” of 4chan. Just don’t do it.

Muslims are being persecuted for their religeon and skin colour, something they can’t change even if they could. 4chan is just a website and you can easily hide that you post there. Muslims live in fear of being mistaken for terrorists and sent to Guantanomo bay. The worst thats happened to 4channers is being called names OR being punished for acting like assholes.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, 4chan, by its very design, is an anonymous mass of people. There are barely any names on 4chan, and if they suddenly made everybody have them, there would be riots. if you post on 4chan, you are literally giving up your identity for the protection of the anonymous masses.

But Muslims, Gay people, trans people, every discriminated group of people have identities beyond their respective groups, which is why shouldn’t make blanket statements about them.

4chan have no individuals, they are just a mass of posters, so we have no choice but to judge the Mass according to the loudest actions. which has been nothing but bile.


+Drunken Elf

if even sr4 is a feminist game, then what’s the big fuckin problem? it’s like “there isn’t enough representation of women in games… except for that ultra big budget high profile game…” good, you got your game, then lead by example. make more feminist games.
But wait- was sr4 successful because it was feminist, or because it was fun, and the fun had jack to do with whatever feminism? Because if I had to choose in a game like GTA, just cause and hitman between feminism and fun, as a gamer I’d go with fun. As a big fan of open world games, I am a huge fan of being able to do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING possible in the game engine, that includes murdering random male and female npcs whenever I feel like it. Bethesda rpgs tried to prevent you from killing children, I modded that away because its my copy, I do what I want and if push comes to shove I will stab the little brat in his face.
Also… a night in the woods doesn’t look too AAA mainstream to me. And that’s what I mean by a feminist game. Sure, any indie developer can dish out a really good heartfelt artsy fartsy 2D adventure game, but it still isn’t by any means the caliber of call of duty where gameplay and fun takes precedence over whatever story or social commentary you’re trying to make. I could be wrong, but you can’t deny that tomb raider seems to have more production value than this.

Also, casual is exactly what casual means: CASUAL. As in no need to put any thought into my attire because I’m so casual. As in any old shirt, without exception. I swear its like you SJWs are more offended by interpretation than intent. And I’ve had a literature education as well (i got good grades in that class), I know how its like to intepret stuff for meanings that aren’t there but MATT TAYLOR WAS JUST WEARING A FUCKING SHIRT, IT’S JUST A SHIRT WITH SOME INTERESTING PATTERNS, THERE IS NO GODDAM SUBTEXT. What’s the message a shirt like that would send to anyone who is not actually actively looking for the patriarchy under every damn rock? Oh, its a shirt. It’s very comfy and casual. There are patterns of cartoon bikini women. He likes cartoons because he’s a nerd. He likes scantily clad women because he is a heterosexual male. His lady friend made this shirt for him and he’s wearing it in this momentous event as a gesture of friendship and respect.

SJWs (and I’ll admit it’s people in general) love punishing people by way of mob justice? Except there is no such thing as mob justice, the two are inherently contradictory terms – a mob has no rationality, only group think – they don’t judge based on logic, only from emotion, which is why otherwise rational people would be such in favor of censorship and actually fall for the excuse of “harassment” as a valid reason to limit free speech. Banning sex related words in order to be sensitive to rape victims is basically punishing free speech for the crimes of rapists. Attacking someone for wearing a t-shirt because he was insensitive to oppressed women in the workplace is basically punishing freedom of attire for the crimes of actual misogyny from actual misogynists. but of course then again, Matt Taylor was an easy target huh. Perfect for nerd shaming and wouldn’t put up much of a fight, so SJWs could put up another victory flag and convince themselves that bullying Matt into apologizing for a fucking shirt was somehow a victory for women’s rights, meanwhile income inequality remains unscathed, women are still being actually oppressed by conservatives… and sharia law… religious stupidity… (but surprise, tumblr feminism doesn’t do shit to solve those, WHO KNEW!!!)

I suppose you’re pretty much against free information. You might be surprised to know that I’m actually against anonymity, in fact I’ll go one step further: privacy is completely unnecessary and counter-intuitive in a utopia haven, because barriers to any information (including personal information) creates misunderstandings, ignorance and in turn prejudice. But I am also against antimarket policies in the marketplace of ideas, for any reason. I am against harassing even harassers, it makes you a hypocrite. I prefer clientside censorship over serverside censorship – you don’t want to see it, fine but don’t limit other people’s communications. Trolls in the internet are nothing new, anonymity brings out the worse- yet most honesty in people. by virtue of 4 chan being anonymous, means you can never quite pinpoint who is responsive for any malice and that is a mixed blessing – the upside is that people are not afraid to express what they really think. And people should never be afraid to express their opinions.

4 chan may be anonymous, but all muslims look the same to me, so its sort of the same thing, and that’s my point. For people who actually know their shit about muslims, they know clearly that not all muslims are the same. If there were a terrorist attack, the professionals know where it came from, and where it did not come from. For people who actually have done research into 4 chan beyond SJW propaganda, they know that the 4 chan attacks only originate from certain parts of 4 chan – plus, even with the cloak of anonymity there will always be patterns. Ignorance is the reason for prejudice, it should never be an excuse for prejudice.

+Drunken Elf
“a kickstarter for a top down scifi role playing game that allowed you to pick your Gender and sexuality”
Like I said, indie games don’t count.

Dude, you can’t say  “DOn’t make blanket statements about 4chan!” Then immediatelly make blanket statements about Tumblr. Its pretty damn hypocritical.

First of all, you can’t yell at people for complaining about one problem when there are bigger problems.  There are ALWAYS bigger problems to worry about. There is no reason why we can’t deal with the smaller ones along the way.

Second of all, you changed your definition of a game. Before you only talked about mods, so I talked about videogames being made with Feminist values in mind and then you say, “Oh those games? They aren’t Call of Duty.” Way disregard the GIANT indie scene. THose are real games that people enjoy, no matter how much handwaving you do.

You did mention TOMB RAIDER though, which confused me, because that game did what a SHIT ton of feminists have been asking for years, as in to STOP treating its female lead like a Sex Object. It sold over 5 million copies, it was plenty of goddamn fun.

There is no subtext in a shirt being covered in naked women. Sexual imagery makes people feel uncomfortable and in a workplace, you are FORCED to work with those people. If a guy you had to work with was wearing a shirt covered in naked men, with their thongs richelly detailed and buttocks glistening.  Sure, that man has a RIGHT to wear that shirt, but YOU have a RIGHT to complain about it, especially if you have to work with that person intimately.

“SOrt of the same thing” is layman’s terms for “False equivalence” as in making a comparison that doesn’t work, but acting like it does. Being anonymous on 4chan is a CHOICE, while being brown skinned IS NOT.


+Drunken Elf

1. You’re confusing the act of making a blanket statement with drawing on a stereotype – the latter does not make any truth statements.

2. I understand full well that big problems don’t invalidate small problems. Thing is though SJWs have a real issue with that whole cause and effect thing. You wanna solve a problem you gotta tackle the cause, and neither “bossy” nor videogames nor a damn shirt has any significant causal correlation with misogyny and sexism. It’s not so much as a “small problem” as “NOT the problem”. Answer me this: WHAT does women’s rights gain by bullying a scientist into apologizing for a shirt? What does women’s rights gain by making videogames politically correct? How do these things help women’s rights? Now consider what women’s rights gains from making employers raise women’s wages, or consider the huge gains in rights women would get if religion were abolished from making laws concerning women. The difference is HUGE. I’m just saying that for a bunch of activists that are so loud and obnoxious, you accomplish surprisingly little.

3. I mention mods because women are always bitching about games, trying to force the developers to change the games (and its target audience apparently), but they never do anything constructive to actually improve the game for themselves. Mods and indie games have this tiny difference in that mods for AAA titles actually have a AAA title serving as backbone, while indie games are interesting but suffer from common flaws of indie games: not mainstream enough, they don’t have the reach and coverage of AAA titles, the Day Z mod based on Arma 2 for example had more players than most indie games of its time. Plus, the indie scene is kind of a mess. Jus sayin.

4. Again, if even tomb raider is feminist friendly, then why are you still bitching about the representation of women in games? If there are really so many feminist friendly titles, then that means you have your niche, you can stop trying to make everything cater to feminism now, thank you very much. (ps. having merely the option of killing women in a game that allows you to kill everybody does not automatically make the game misogynistic)

5. ACCURACY, PLEASE. It’s not naked if they’re wearing bikinis, it’s empowering if anything. “Sexual imagery makes people feel uncomfortable and in a workplace” if that is a valid argument then I say its entirely inappropriate for people in the workplace to have lumps sticking out of their chest (or groin, to make it fair). Even if a woman’s breasts are enclosed by clothing, it’s outline is still visible, thus women with boobs should not be allowed in the workplace since they might make the men feel aroused and uncomfortable.
Also, sure. When SJWs bombard some dude with their outcry its “complaining” but when non SJWs do it its “harassment?” excuse me?

6. Everything is a choice, and nothing is a choice. Muslims could choose to drop the islamic faith, go do skin treatment to become less brown, and I’m sure we could find a medically viable way to make gay people straight if we tried hard enough. Then again, we are all predispositioned to make our choices, nobody actually chooses how they were born, nobody chooses their thought process.

7. Let’s examine your claim of false equivalence:
You say that because 4 chan is anonymous (to you, there are tons of ways to identify a user on 4 chan that you don’t know about), therefore its okay to hate it because of its outspoken harassers who coordinate organized attacks on SJWs in order to silence them. It is forgivable to conclude that they are representative of the majority of 4 chan because everyone is anonymous so you cannot distinguish the good from the bad.
I say that muslims are anonymous to me, therefore its okay to hate muslims because of their outspoken terrorists who coordinate terrorism on their enemies in order to exact jihad. It is forgivable to conclude that the terrorists are representative of the majority of muslims because since they all look and sound the same thus making them practically anonymous, I cannot distinguish the bad muslims from the good muslims.

You can’t distinguish 1 chan user from another, and I can’t distinguish 1 muslim from the other.

Certainly the guy who posted some hardcore porn with lots of profanity is the same guy who commented on how cute a cat picture was, surely you can’t distinguish one from the other. Just as I can’t distinguish one muslim guy named mohammed who looks like a terrorist, and the other muslim guy also named mohammed who wears glasses and likes computers (but he’s probably a cyberterrorist as well). So you have your justification to attack 4 chan, and I have my justification to nuke the middle east, I think its fair.

The comparison I’m making is that in both cases, ignorance is used as an excuse to blame an entire group for the actions of its rogue elements.

8. Are you against freedom of speech? Do you respect the marketplace of ideas? (And don’t say something like “unless its harassment”)

9. tell me how SJWs are any different from mob justice?

+Drunken Elf
Also, what feminists are trying to do towards games originally intended for a male audience is inherently nerdshaming. by removing female objectification from videogames, and by dismissing the male gamer’s need for a game to have tits “because they are pathetic virgins”, you are nerdshaming us for our sexuality.
How many times do I have to assure feminists that no women were harmed in the making of this game? If someone leaves a videogame a crazy misogynistic murderer, that’s because he was a crazy misogynist murderer in the first place. Videogames don’t cause violence, nor do video games cause violence towards women, this myth has been debunked over, and over, and over.
if slutshaming isn’t okay, then why is nerdshaming okay? last I checked sluts have no problem objectifying men. oh right, because we’re pathetic losers that have bad PR, got it. No double standards here, gotta save the damsel from the evil patriarchy.

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